# *** and Gender Sawbones ## A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sawbones-a-marital-tour-of-misguided-medicine/id665149280?**1000539784923 https://sawbones.simplecast.com/episodes/***-and-gender-bN7Tea4f There has been lots of discourse about gender expression recently, and “science” is often trotted out as an argument to deny the experience of others. “Feel however you want,” these arguments typically begin, “but there are only two sexes, and they’re easily defined, and that’s just science.” That’s … well it’s cr*p. This week on Sawbones, join us as we make it extremely clear where science stands on this complex issue. ------------------------------------ [speech to text extract follows] Sawbones is a show about medical. And nothing the host say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. Is refund. Can't you just for an hour and not trying to. Your mystery boy. We thank you very much. Just sit back. And enjoy your moment of distraction from. Weird growth. You're worth. Welcome to southern misguided medicine. Your google. Justin mcelroy what's the congenial to be doing this show you know it is. It's a delight to get to work with my wife and i'm just happy to be. Corner spiker. Well meet you justin i'm excited this week. Lately just in there's been a lot of discourse. In the world in the media. About *** and g. And it occurred to me that we've never really done just like that as a topic on our show talk about. *** and gender and like from a with a scientific and a historical perspective. What how heavy ideas either changed or maybe just our understanding of them or knowledge of them has grown and evolved over time and the reason i think it's important is that i keep seeing this argument like later. Wow. We met. Believe these are very much like a question about this american sort of thinking bottle reflector western. Ideas about gender that one maybe now we're open to the possibility that gender is not binary that gender could be. Fluid could be a spectrum that you see these arguments that like well but. *** is not *** is binary *** the science lessons biology obviously we all know that. And there a lot of. False argument that are predicated on that. That is an accepted truth. That. But is not. It seems like that. Are people like to frame the discourse as. Feelings or emotion identity or society whatever vs harcourt science and you'll see. Iherb. Rip site from their grasping hands. Well i just think if you're going to go home if you're going to try to claim some like that some sort of belief system basically your own personal beliefs and biases are based in science. You better be right for you. As the wellness community synonym.com benefit end the thing is like if you're if this is wrong and you're using it to oppress others and to deny. Add existing. Have people then. Do you know you need to be called out and. How to get that you just haven't. So that that's what that's what i want to talk about it just focus on ***. Great 69. Great success. I have had a weird conversations with another like crying my special button that makes borat say my wife doesn't. So folks at home this is the second time i've done it and rachel's had edited out of time so save rachel the end. Just pretend you her borat saying my wife. So whether people are making the argument based on like chromosomes or. Weather whether people pronouncing why words like that around the house 20. Yellow. Weather. Yeah like i'm saying whether not weather like that. I have had people in science tell me like well there to biological *** is right and it again they usually basing this argument on either chromosomes. Xx vs xy. There is a binary sexist. Or there is a more sort of base argument on my while you just. Looking now. Bathing suit area and you can tell yes obviously i think it easier for people understand that argument. Is unscientific in flour. But then they go back to the dna chromosome thing and think like well but this is. This is true i was tired in high school science would you even swear right you will probably taught that at some point. Talk about that start with chromosome because there are many layers when it comes to lie. Sexual development. Bullet start with. You know the chromosomes and to do that we have to kind of get umbreon. Sweet about the forming of the embryo rate. The sperm and the egg. So we and we really by the way are beginning of understanding this process is specifically the genes and chromosomes. Stereotypes and all this really developed and like. The mid 1900s that only begin to look at genes and chromosomes and search understand like when we talk about *** and like the layers of sexual development and what equals white that is where we started to figure this out there is a lot of research done by psychologists name dr john money and a paediatric endocrinologist name that are called me zone. And i needed a while research on this back in like the 1950s actually had am. Agenda affirming. That they would run to duel. You know procedures and things. For in this pursuit so yeah this is when you start to see like the scientific understanding of this. Specific area of genetic research the understanding was it except means. Girl. Xy means but there's a very. Rudimentary kind of explanation that people would give you and again i'm not saying that is accurate that it was the end. And if we wanted to know. A definitive answer you could do with got a karyotype or are you just your new price in pictures of. Are the pairs of chromosomes laid out and all the photograph and then you look at the last pair. Is it xx xy today with the same word. I'm. If this were done. And all of us if this exact procedure if we all had a karyotype. What do you mean. I have. But something. You may actually be surprised. What you would find because there are only two. Choices. They are just xx and xy individuals. There are other combinations that can and do happen. Some of which you know about because. They present in a in a physical form right like you in a clinical presentation. In the inner person and others which you may never know. Because as chromosomes are dividing cells are dividing as genes are being exchanged between chromosomes as all this is happening there's always room for variation that's why we all look different right. Because of all the variation that can occur during that process also. Sometimes the chromosomes are distributed people. Can you get something like. Xxy. Or. X. Oh meaning. Hello. Or you get xx. I'm sometimes you can have transfers of genetic material between. What we have commonly called the *** chromosomes there to my chromosomes rate so there is a part of the y chromosome called the sry. Region. And this is responsible for a lot of the secondary sexual characteristics. If that gets transferred to an x chromosome. Dobson the x chromosome has the same properties. Was that we would associate with the y chromosome and these things aren't just a lot of times when you start to talk about this. Even people who heard this sort of science before will say well but like this and never had this so we're right this is so incredibly real. Well. Somebody who has. 3 x g. Ok or xyy. Those are both about 1 in 1000 live births. I tell you about to say something nice. Alarm. I didn't you have triple x on dvd no are you don't allow me to collect this company anymore now. Xxy which is the most common of the. Is actually 1 and 600 live. That's. Yes my my head these are. Why does rare as you think they are right and again not everyone always realised. Either immediately. In puberty or ever. This might be true because you don't. Generally get to see your chromosome. There also may be one of the bar on the swings maybe he has chromosomes are you still there too little. There's also other things that can happen again more more than these conditions but there is like moses ism when there are different. Sets of chromosomes in different body cells. So depending on which cell from your body i sampled i might see a different make. There's also something called chimerism and we talked about these before on the show. Enduro to fertilize eggs will fuse. Informed. Uno 13011 eventual person. So within that person. Are basically two different sets of. Chromosomes. So again you could get completely different. Career types based on which. Your mum saying. There's also like the exchange with other for 102 anything between a pregnant person and the foetus. That happens will like some of the fetal cells get into the. Pregnant person's body in some of their cells getting like you can still find them later on. So again you can find x x x y x y x y all these different combos. M people that just happened. Nature. How anyone feels. Data science companies in meath. Especially for my vegetable. I go back i'm sorry city i had provided. This is my wine here so i'm trying to my great job thank you by the way even if you've got like the chromosome sort of established there's also like the development of the reproductive organs what we live for us the gonad. Ovaries or testes. Really funny what i don't want to do now i know really funny. This involves a lot more than just the chromosomes because you can get individuals who are xy who don't develop testis and vice versa i mean so this is not a wonder one thing is this belief that x y = testicles = man. Yeah right so so 4xx and none of this is there 25 different genes that work together to create the physical characteristics that we associate with *** and any of those can change the course of things. Create a variation. All these are ways that *** can exist. I spectrum and a lot of this is classified you may have heard the term intersex before there's also differences in sexual development of the sd. Is a preferred term. I think it depends i've heard that scientifically a lot of love. Researchers have adopted the term dsds but i've also heard from some inisex individual like activist organizations i prefer but i think it would be an individual. Like i think you'll have to ask her for someone i would prefer. There are a lot of these that can come into play the penny on my hormones and receptors there any other cases again that you don't know was know that this variation may occur there was like a 7 year old father who died in 2014. Present weather of the father for 7 years old presents with a hernia and it ends up being there is a uterus and fallopian tube in there. So chelsea's or ovaries can develop but this does not necessarily align with any sort. You know. Definite chromosomal array also the external genitalia that develops neck. That doesn't necessarily line with anything either cuz again. Kinds of hormonal differences in receptor differences that can affect what what about what you see basically when when a baby is born what you can look and visualise they're all of that is not necessarily tied anything on genetic level and again. If there's even further variation when we get to like puberty. You can see changes at that point in in variety that doesn't again line up with what you had assumed previously was there's also this this idea brain 6. What your brain what *** your brain is. And again this is not something. I feel like a lot of people who try to write this all off. As like. Just something you believe. But they're also scientific study their scientific differences when we look at the structure and function. Of the brain. Welcomes to for instance there was a study that was done in people who are transgender. And they basically said if i look at the brain after eight looking at structure and function. The brain of a transgender woman. Structurally and functionally. Is more similar to a cisgender woman than a system. Does any improvement i'm again so that like brain *** is a thing there are real observable differences. Which isn't the end of e.r. but they are there so forgot you sign for your argument you better make sure it's in your favourite it's not. The sciences. *** is a spectrum. Agenda is a sacrum. And these things all these things i'm talking about again just to give you an idea as to like how not where this is. So when it comes to. Intersex or differences in sexual develop. Individuals there used to be a tournament that like this occurs in like. 05-06 percent of the population this is like. Negligible we don't even even if it was. But if you if you want to start talking about how *** is a binary and all of this. Prove that untrue then you need to consider every case. Where xx chromosomes do not. Yeah default equal girl and xy boy. I'm in there. It's probably about 1.7% of the population. That sounds like a lie to me yeah it's like 139 people. Right satellite of people to put in perspective. That about the same percentage of the population that has green eyes. Is about the same percentage of the population that has red hair. We don't consider either of those things so rare that you'll never see them or know anybody with the mineral whilst true. So this year. If i may be so bold and maybe that's in the week and told me about you. So. In a lot of the recent like in braterstwo mine for me personally is. In rc west virginia there was this terrific piece of legislation passed. To being transgender app. I'm playing sports in high school in college. At all levels of schooling. They are like with the group that is congruent with their own gender. Identity ray. And that was based on the idea that we could either do. An external general examination or we could do a chromosomal test. Improve. White there. Current biological *** is that was always running. And that's just science. But that's not true. Norovirus truth because there is an albino and you couldn't do either of those things independently prove anything because if you are scientifically determine stack the interested if you're using *** as a binary. You can't cos now by eric because of the spectre. So the whole argument. For the parrot that point then for the like what is your motivation for even doing that also is to do harm it's always to oppress and discriminate and write someone of their you know natural human rights. There's no reason to do it but beyond that scientifically. It just doesn't listen. Well that wraps up i guess. Another one. Well. Does not the whole story though. Because *** is not a binary we've determined. Gender non-binary either. And we here in the west may have only recently begun to say that out loud then college it. There were people all over the world who done that for a long time now i want to talk my dad but first let's go to the apartment let's go. Hey i know what you're thinking what am i supposed to do with my grandkids. It's a father keeps me up at night is the first thing i wake up to every morning is the last that i have for argos. Where i do it is terrible children i mean i don't think you're terrible but it can be hard to keep kids constantly engaged. With no idea new projects new play something that you don't feel good about engaging with in. I have a great game a kids love called feed the vacuum cleaner. Are or ft mr vacuum from feeling really whimsical tried attach the hose part and let him gather scraps of trash in particular from around the roman feed it to the vacuum it makes them really happy. Now if you think that's sad that kiwico. W w cubicle why is it better than finasteride. Because a kiwico they know that you don't just want to use your children to clean up your house while secretly you know disguising it is play but maybe instead you want to get a crate filled with age-appropriate activities and materials and instructions with pictures that are themed around a certain lesson certain concepts whether it you know be something like rainbows or you know music or something like technical physics you know as scientific. And they give you everything you need to do these activities when your child to type and messy there going to be a time so you know you're getting into then they tell you how much parental hands-on involvement are going to need to know how like into. Like what we have time for a right now but i want to get messy for a night it's great and is everything and you can scare up some fun this halloween with kiwico redefined learning with play it's more hands-on projects about confidence creativity and critical thinking skills get 30% off first month plus free shipping on any create line. The code sawbones at kiwico.com 50% off your first month at kiwi6 promo code. Farmers mission is simple make the most comfortable clothes ever and match every item sold with an equal and donated to the saturday when you gift bombers to someone on their list you're also giving them to someone in need it so give give. You have not tried bombers if you were in that sad camp i would. Sergio. To slip these bad boys onto your. Human body and let luxury wash over you come in waves. They're going to stay up better than any socks you before and before. They have styles for every sport that hardly styles when you're feeling festive tis the season. My friends november 1st is a record this. It is time. Get the gift-giving mode and there's no better way to do it then was barnabas go to barbers.com and get 20% off any purchase during the bank holiday sale that's b o m b as.com / sawbones for 20%. Bombay8 as.com / savills. Well hello i'm stressing and we have a house can i put your door and breaking news we had an extra day it all the beans have been spilled via an apple podcast review that said this show isn't well researched and anthropomorphizing doctors what we do we can i take your dog promise that we will never do more than 10 seconds of research before telling you excitedly about any dog we save a mannequin with top-10 and susie azam minimal facts we're here for a good time that medicated time with you love dogs and you don't worry third you know where come on in the can i put your dog podcast every tuesday on network. Where in the world is that again. When it comes to gender. The difference is i think you probably understand that what if somebody talks about *** vs gender what is gender. You took the first ever question episode. I'm a listener. I share your rotten trick. Gender has to do with much more of a construct right it's much more socially dick-head in the sense that we that we have understood it isn't it just the label. In the past yeah. But not interbike accommodation of court and boys and girls. In everybody. Yes. Gender has to do with like everything around us in our time and place is the connotations that we have put on as yes yes. So so gender is more complicated complicated and it's changed over time like what we associate right. Different genders what colours or clothing or activities or jobs or whatever but they're walls are all those things. Can be can change the me know where you are and when you are in which country you're within. Again. In our in the westonview gender was considered a binary that was sort of linked with that binary search. For awhile brightly. *** was. Boy girl man woman. Gender is the same thing. Or house better i'm not say it again this is not true but this is this was the process. Gender is also my land and is linked with those. *** stephanie. And that's it. And when you start to go to like what do you associate with each one. Traditionally in the west we had. Masculine view of what a man who is xy would be in his feminine view of what a woman who is xx would be as if that is. The all. Knowing truth and. Justin aka. The classic. Machismo. In america. Michael dustin. That's on my. The classic. You definition. Advance. If you dream about my cheese smell. That kind thing is kind and if you're looking for your classic. Feminine demure. Uno deferential. Painting flower that's me the classic the classical guitar hero. Can i give you a place to start. So the thing is. Wowwee may and again in especially in i mean let's just be honest as first-line the us we have this view that like. Well this is the way we believed it so obviously everyone else believe the same thing and yeah this is the way the american conception. Ray and because this could not be further from the. There are lots of cultures throughout time and place. That have never view. Gender is a bunny. And because they you know because gender was something that was much larger more fluid and a much bigger spectrum than what we view it here as well. Arriflex that innate understand. That *** is not binary either right because we're talking about culture is that understood these things long before we could do a chromosome or. If you look to native american people like in the united states. You can find like a mum the sunni and the navajo people the idea of two-spirit individuals being very common specifically in the navajo tradition there can be for gender. There's like a masculine feminine masculine feminine. And each of those has its own sort of. You know again because that's what we do with gender we have like things we. Connotations we make rolls that person place in society things they look like and do an act and be in each other's has their own and that's. That's part of that culture and always husband. The number actual genders. That would never have been. That's not the framework that's not the strap. If we look as far back as the kama sutra. You remember the conversation. Used to watch several specials on showtime divided 2. Understanding that particular time so very very well. Between 400 and 300 bce. There is recognition of other genders in india. That far back so again these are not new concepts. And specifically in india these individuals reflect to possess. Like. A mistake almost ability extra abilities especially like the ram of a song in dancing. You know this beautiful song. Magical energy. The these individuals had that fit into the third gender. I'm actually in 2014 the supreme court in india officially recognise. A third gender. I mean you know there wasn't just me. It was a third gender we would probably in our terminology refer to. In the west has changed. They use the. Hijra or tina is there a preference. Which is actually a reference to. A mistake. Creature in in india. They are one of several. Countries now who have. A third gender option that has also been added with more i'm in even western countries recognise. Transgender individuals and gender-nonconforming individuals and non-binary individuals and everybody could didn't fit into that sort. Fostering work out 40 girl. There are lots of countries who follows suit now but even earlier this concept of the third gender that is ancient. There is not no there is not. The results. You know whatever whatever. Transphobic activist want to say it is. Diesel ideas that have existed long before the united states of america exist. And again if we continue look outside of our sort of cultural. Among the first nations people in australia you find sister girls and brother boys. And among the indigenous community third gender has always been fluid and more than a binary and something. Was defined by. Asking. And i'm telling you and you. Then accept that because they know that and that's the end of the conversation and low examination or. We are blood tests necessary to prove anything further. And even when we tried to use like our terminology like to define nose. Brother boy sister girl what does that mean. Our terminology is an even like a language we would use in the west. Is not enough for that we can encompass all of the like cultural connotations of that and what those words mean we can try to say like that sort of that is the same as what we would call a transgender woman or whatever but no it's more than that because it's. Because their concept of gender. Is different than what we. Have here in in the us and assume. Is scientifically g. I'm because it's all just a cultural thing. Are in hawaiian indigenous cultures we have the mayhew. Who again defy this gender binary in samoa they have the fateh 15 people the in madagascar the socrata in oaxaca city mexico the boxes there are lots of different gender. Cadbury's outside of male-female that exist all over the world author out time all across cultures. That just again these are new ideas. That have just always been. Gender is not binary *** is not binary. They are not two things. So why why. Do we. Hold so tight. In the us to the. False idea. But this framework we have this *** binary this gender binary is all correct. Even though. In many ways like where are the minority for believing. The wizard the wizard impose this idea our own people that alone people who live outside the us to know when i'm about to have to start apologising on behalf of my. The gender in. Race and so i'm just going to. Strapping directions promai fortnite. I mean are you using you as a representation of sexual cisgender man. Yes your fault. So basically if you want to trace ****. The route of especially needs out of culture so because i say that in all these other places that i just list. The people who are not who do not fit into some sort of binary gender frame. Are all completely accepted and celebrated in their communities and giving all the same equal right. Yeah you know no. That's not true and it's still a struggle for people who love all over the world you know depending on what country are there raised in if they don't fit into this false gender binary. Why do they change it's so probably dates back to first of all when you go into. The renaissance era. There's this idea why. Quest hierarchy that starts to become very ingrained. Yeah you like social stress. I'm there are the elite people there's royalty they're rich people there are well educated. And then you go you know kind of down the letter below that and along with this idea of like a class hierarchy in the aristocracy and everything in the working classes for low that you start to get a hierarchy of other things that comes with it. So. This is the ruling class and along with the rolling class comes the rolling gender. And that ruling gender is masking. And masculine becomes associated with man becomes associated eventually would so that's why they were not at that point yet so masculine man get placed at the top of this newly developed. Class and then gender hierarchy. Feminine. Eventually women as it becomes the binary. I placed below them so first you have this like hierarchy of of gender roles that begins to develop and with that comes out their roles and responsibilities in society. An. Woodside what they're not allowed to do because as soon as you define who's in charge. Everyone else's define. In relation to them and what they can't do. Or you know or a limited from because they're not that thing in charge and i think that was in charge. Was a white masculine man. Because just alongside this gender hierarchy that's been devel. As you start travelling all over the world is western european culture travelling over the world they also start developing their racial hierarchy ryan this is the same time we start to see whiteness placed at the top. Replaced at the top. People who own land who have money placed at the top all of that become. Like the centre and everybody else just have to try to orbit around it as best i can. Did you get until like the revolutionary period but the 17 and 1870 the american revolution the french revolution again you're talking about like a time or alikes but we celebrating a rights of man. Any of the rights of man. Man supposedly is the standing for humanity but it's not really right because. As was begin to be qualified in the us. Who's at the top. Who's the weather who is allowed and property who's allowed to make decisions. Over and over and so you have to if that. Person who has that power is going to maintain and being charged by virtue of their. Gender. You've got a very clearly define what is that gender and what is. And so then we get the sort of ideas. Men. Who are masculine being a *** on the gender binary and women who are found. Yeah on the other side. And then we take that framework. And we force it upon every country that we colonize all over and not the rest of course but. Are there any nations that's what they did they took this idea of a binary and every country they went to that had another idea that had more fluid ideas more and more of a spectrum id of gender every country they went to they say. That's wrong or it's primitive or its gross or it's immoral or it's not christian whatever whatever they wanted to do. To say it was bad to demonise it. And started to impose this idea along with all the other things connotation brought. Gender is a binary. Which is why you see that sort of like. Struggle to get back to where. They were in the beginning in some of the society that people who are outside the gender binary trying to fight back to a time where. Like you know hundreds of years ago where that was normal and accepted and everyone knew that there were more than 2 g. Because that's the truth. And now they're trying to get back to that because of what. The conners. But i think it's really important when you work at 6 and gender to understand that we got this really limited perspective way. Well we know what the truth is. And. That is so arrogant and wrong because one. There's not a truth. *** is non-binary gender is not buying into. Other. Cultures are those societies other countries. Have known as. 4. You know thousands of years. And just because it took us this long in the us to figure this stuff out of listen to people who've been telling us for a long time. Does it mean that we just attach that's all over right we just discovered it we discovered it today after a swag right no but like it this is always been true and i mean that's great that we finally figured it out i guess. Butter doesn't butter doesn't negate the fact that. There are a lot of the places with the 7/1 time and it is the truth. You know when you start talking about like in all these cases. Scientifically could we do. Figure out somebody *** again. There are two sexes so there and there is no reason to do it. It's not something that you know. We should be doing that we can be doing that has value other than to use as a tool of oppression. And what we do now what science does tell. On the contrary is the. Validating. Someone's. Validating who they are. And you know offering them appropriate support. Using correct pronouns after in people who seek out gender-affirming treatments are surgeries making sure that they have access to those things. That science cells. Is. Arsenal fc. It reduces. The rates of anxiety and depression and self-harm those are those things that science can tell us. The validating someone's gender experience. Is the right thing to do not just scientifically although that's that's always nice to but you know ethically. Justin as i said in the beginning of this episode the interest for that. Contact the topic is that i heard so many people. Making the argument that *** is binary and using science. As a reason for discrimination and for the 9 people's fundamental existence right and so that's why i felt like it was important to address but no actually scientifically that's wrong and text isn't binary. But regardless of all that. Honestly the only way to really know someone gender identity it has nothing to do with other. The chromosomes in the genes or genitals or any other things we talk about. The best way to do that is to ask someone and then whatever someone says. Is valid and true because. You don't have to have any sort of a proof. To justify your identity. It is what you say it is and that's it at the end of the day so i think it's important to remember that well it's useful and no this science because so many people are using it wrong to discriminate against others. At the end of the day the sciences and the point treating people with respect and dignity and validating their resistance. Is what really matter. Set alarm to 6. Go tell your high school science teacher they were wrong idiot. Play tough guy know when you used to push me in the dumpster 1-hour. You in a dance to mr watson. Well i had some great science teachers. But the thing is like. And i send it to my calling so i believe. You know have a word of knowledge in the scientific world. We were all taught a lot of the stuff that was wrong but like if we have you know open hearts open minds then we can learn. That we were wrong and not this is new information the change was wrong we were just wrong. And like if you're not sharing science if we can be wrong i mean. What's an hour. Yeah we're alright. No not this time this one. Rather attractive thank you so much for listening to podcast hope you enjoyed yourself. Someone's book. That you can find out wherever fine books are sold. Even bad box why can you book like a premature. Bookstore. Mel b. You know. Version that has some stuff about quarantine. And what have you is pretty neat and i. We had some other stuff there it would be a fun t-shirt and some other things. Mcilroy merch.com so head on over. Thanks also. The expires for this there some medicines is he into. Nr30 of opprobrium. Next. It is going to do for us until next time i was just mcilroy maximum. Chameleon. Artist and audience support.