LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 12:53 PM So is it the position of this alliance that a pilot named "All Hail TRUMP" is fine but objecting to that name in coms is not? I have real humans in my corp who don't get to leave their identities at the login screen OBRW Jacknick MortomerToday at 12:56 PM Why is it even something what we need to discuss? People have their rights for opinions, having a pilot named like that is the same right ??????? If somebody is LBGT (or how ever its written) and doesnt agree with trump or what ever > thats a right too. Why cant we just play the game? why everything has to be involved in here too? LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 12:58 PM it isn't about 'not agreeing with' it's about Trump encouraging violence against his opponents, and it's about the paradox of tolerance and again, either the alliance is taking a hard line against politics, in which case this obviously political statement as a character name should be objected to or my complaints in a public space are valid what is extremely concerning is that someone is making a blatently facist political statement and then this alliance is only claiming 'no politics' when that statement is challenged --SM- Dinnen Do'UrdenToday at 1:01 PM First of all I would like to press assault charges on the one that even started this convo because It made me smack my forehead so hard it hurt... second of all he kinda went racist during his rant at the end. Third Trump is the currect commander and chief of the US at the moment. Sooo whether we agree to it or not it is a fact. LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:02 PM what? who is being racist? OBRW Jacknick MortomerToday at 1:02 PM That LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:02 PM that's not racist how old are you guys? --SM- Dinnen Do'UrdenToday at 1:04 PM Umm he made a specific reference to and singled out the white race... OBRW Jacknick MortomerToday at 1:04 PM Sadly, i can still read so not old enough it seems --SM- Dinnen Do'UrdenToday at 1:04 PM Just drop it... tell your guy to vote this year if he is unhappy LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:04 PM so you guys think that addressing systemic injustice is racist because systemic injustice favors white people? OBRW Jacknick MortomerToday at 1:05 PM This is EVE not united states of third world :man_shrugging: I'm sorry that things are shit in your country for some people but that doesnt involve EVE LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:05 PM I expected so much better from this group --SM- Dinnen Do'UrdenToday at 1:06 PM You teach racism sadly. My daughter is 5. Her best playmate is black. She doesn't know what racism is and I'm proud of that. If people would just drop it any racism would literally be bred out of our society in 1 generation... just a social experiment for ya LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:06 PM @Rex Barchurst I'd like to know your take on all this before I make any decisions @--SM- Dinnen Do'Urden ignoring racism doesn't solve racism. --SM- Dinnen Do'UrdenToday at 1:07 PM Hmm it has in my daughter. She doesn't see color LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:08 PM I get how easy it is to think that when you're white that's not how humans work I can't teach you guys how racism works in a discord chat but this isn't it there are a lot of books about it I could recommend though --SM- Dinnen Do'UrdenToday at 1:10 PM Could recommend a few for you as well but how about we just drop it and play the game :thumbsup: LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:11 PM yeah I'll drop it as soon as that player gets kicked and I have serious doubts about the legitimacy of any books you'd recommend me on race --SM- Dinnen Do'UrdenToday at 1:12 PM Well thats not up to me... PSST. Jessica StarfallToday at 1:12 PM So wait... you came to EVE online seeking morality and ethics? LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:13 PM the people who play this game are real humans --SM- Dinnen Do'UrdenToday at 1:13 PM Yeah wrong game for that... a game of trolling and tears LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:14 PM being cruel is a choice, I'm trying to find out what choices this alliance wants to make LTDRM/LTSEC Odnarb LightdrummerToday at 1:15 PM report the player for his name, if it's an issue. players have had to have their names /corp names changed that were related to COVID. if he's named his character for a political stance that stands against any group - *** would remove it. I would recommend not getting into a political debate here, this is still a gaming community. --SM- Dinnen Do'UrdenToday at 1:16 PM I agree... let's let *** be the judge LTDRM/LTSEC Odnarb LightdrummerToday at 1:16 PM don't let one guy ruin your day. if you report him, Kaze, try to include a screen shot of anything he might have said in chat which would further support your claims. I'm sure Rex would contact him as well, in game. I had to do that for a character with a racial slur in their name, they made a new character and joined with that. turned out to be an okay guy later on, just a bad sense of humor. LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:20 PM to be completely honest, while I find the name offensive, I also understand that racists are going to be racists etc. I came here hoping that the alliance would choose to make the right choice about it. OBRW Jacknick MortomerToday at 1:21 PM and the right choice would be ? Exterminate trump and everybody who supports him from earth ? I'm just trying to understand. Maybe i'm too stupid to understand your point of view why this is really that big of issue in here LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:22 PM it would really help if you would continue the conversation in good faith instead of saying stuff about exterminating people LTDRM/LTSEC Odnarb LightdrummerToday at 1:23 PM we're all friends here. just playing a space game. LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:23 PM I've said it multiple times, that if the alliance policy is 'no politics' then the name itself should be an issue -ORB Sabriel TwinStarToday at 1:23 PM I would say this topic should be taken to a private convo and stop the public discussion here cause this is only going to lead to some nasty places by way of much trolling. @LTSEC Grigory/Kaze if you feel that strongly i would say send a direct message to the person and their CEO and ask if they would be willing to rename their character. LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:24 PM well that's the reason I brought it to this channel and stoppped talking about it in general chat LTDRM/LTSEC Odnarb LightdrummerToday at 1:24 PM I'm not sure if it is an alliance policy. It should be though. I agree his name is distasteful. implies the negative side of trump supporters. LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:24 PM well that's exactly the question I'm bringing here yeah it's not like the name is 'learn more about trump' I'm intentionally trying to leave my personal moral and ethical arguments out of this conversation, let alone my political LTDRM/LTSEC Odnarb LightdrummerToday at 1:25 PM he surely named his character that to provoke liberals. LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 1:26 PM but it's unequal to the point of implicitly supporting trump if you say that character name is fine but critisizing it is not LTDRM/LTSEC Odnarb LightdrummerToday at 1:27 PM bunch of mumbo jumbo troll shit. hang tight while Rex catches up on this, I'm sure he'd be willing to contact him. you could also contact the CEO directly. XFOS D'Kins CiderToday at 1:59 PM My piece: Firstly, I think it's a stretch to put Trump into the same grouping as Hitler and Stalin - as soon as you try to make it even remotely similar to those things, you're reducing the strength of your (potentially legitimate) argument. If the name's "Heil Trump", I'd be more concerned than if it's "Hail Trump" - "Heil" has, by intent, significant pointers to extreme right wing politics and actions. Clearly a lot of people support President Cheeto (it's how he became president after all), and a lot of people don't. Is Eve Online the place for real world politics? Sadly, it's pretty pervasive, and *** have made it clear that trolling and being an arsehole is not against their rules. Harassment is though - just make sure it follows their definition, then report the shit out of it. Can people support Trump and be pro LGBTQI or support people of colour? Yes, they can - the political choice is pretty binary at present in the US (if you choose to oppose one of the primary candidates, you only have one choice if you want your voice to matter). As noted though, as a privileged white male member of the 1%, my perspective, as open and inclusive as I try to be with it, is not the important one (though I am just as able to say "no, you can't put me down because that makes me different to you" as anyone else). Personal opinion on the name of the pilot - let an idiot be an idiot. If the alliance has a "no politics" policy, then that needs to extend to names of characters/corps/ships/structures/etc as well as discussion of politics in comms - it needs to be applied evenly. We had a player forced to rename himself after his name was found to be the same as a Philippine Muslim Terrorist Organisation (Abu Sayyaf) even though he claimed the words are mis-used by the terrorist organisation and he didn't follow them at all - I took his point (he's not from that area of the world, though he is muslim and does speak Arabic - that doesn't make him a terrorist though), *** agreed the name was dodgy and forced him to change it. Would I let a pilot into my corp with that name? Probably not, to be honest. Because I suspect it'd cause division I simply don't need. Likewise, I wouldn't let "BidenRules" or similar into my corp. LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 2:05 PM your first point is a huge conversation that has a lot of nuance, ultimately I would have agreed with you two years ago, I don't now @XFOS D'Kins Cider I do appreciate your input Rex BarchurstToday at 4:11 PM 1. If anyone has an issue with a player name, they should take it up with *** if it violates terms of service, *** will handle it. 2. We kick people that blue fire, steal, are spies, or just have a track record of being toxic. To date, toxic usually means behavior that clears voice coms. 3. We do not have a clear rule on real world politics. Usually people that talk about them go to an unused voice channel to discuss such things to not subject the rest of us to it. 4. If you have chat logs we need to look at, please post them. @LTSEC Grigory/Kaze @CEO Rex BarchurstToday at 4:20 PM 5. We are not going to do purity tests. Mathematically, half of our player base would be split between Trump or Biden. If you make a political statement left or right understand that there are people on the other side of the argument that disagree with you. VLOE Michael KarnToday at 4:20 PM I already know what this is about LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 4:48 PM and do you have anything you want to add to the discussion @VLOE Michael Karn ? Rex BarchurstToday at 4:55 PM Grigory do you have chat logs? LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 5:02 PM No, I haven't spoken to the person Rex BarchurstToday at 5:03 PM Was there some chat or coms incident or is this just about the player’s name? LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 5:05 PM It's just about the name VLOE Michael KarnToday at 5:16 PM I do have some stuff to say about it Kevin, the man behind the alt, is a card player in real life, I'll make sure he clarifies this in the future, he does have a sense of humor. Not everything is always as straightforward and obvious as it may seem\ Rex BarchurstToday at 5:19 PM Who posted, "I'll let y'al chiset white guys figure that out, I spend enough time in the real world justifying my right to exist in certain spaces already." that Jacknick Mortomer listed above? @OBRW Jacknick Mortomer LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 5:25 PM My member jaison Rex BarchurstToday at 5:35 PM is what I was just pm'ed LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 5:40 PM Yeah that was in general chat And I think he's entirely correct Rex BarchurstToday at 5:44 PM The last paragraph can be construed as both a racial and gender based slur that places labels on this community and misrepresents multiple players of various ethnic groups and our LGBTQ+ community. LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 5:46 PM By that logic the phrase "white supremacists" is racist against white people Rex BarchurstToday at 5:46 PM if you apply it in the general sense, yes and contextually Chiset white guys could be construed as broadly applied LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 5:48 PM That's just a word soup You can't discuss privilege and systemic injustice without acknowledging that the people who hold power are broadly speaking white, straight, cishet men To ignore that is to be ignorant --SM- Dinnen Do'UrdenToday at 5:52 PM :unamused: really getting offended. I got an idea. Like stated before lets play the game. Petition *** and let's move on? LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 5:52 PM And to ignore Trump's sexism, racism, and general bigotry is to be ignorant as well VLOE Michael KarnToday at 5:52 PM To be fair, both Biden and Trump are guilty of it, so there is no winning in this election. LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 5:53 PM That's apples to an orange, but it's really not what we're discussing here VLOE Michael KarnToday at 5:53 PM This is just both sides getting what they wanted in the end, Republicans got a Republican president for a term, Democrats appear to be leading, and they may get what they wanted, everyone wins. LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 5:54 PM Biden has nothing to do with this conversation OBRW Jacknick MortomerToday at 5:54 PM Guyyysss. EVE is not US elections VLOE Michael KarnToday at 5:54 PM Well no, but you can't just point fingers at one side and not address the other. LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 5:55 PM You misunderstood what I'm arguing then Rex BarchurstToday at 5:55 PM Yeah, no. We have what appears to be a racial slur posted for us to look at. There needs to be an apology for this. LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 5:56 PM You think 'cishet white men' is a racial slur? Rex BarchurstToday at 5:56 PM Of course I do, that is the only contextual reason for it being in the paragraph. But maybe they did not realize they were being offensive. --SM- Dinnen Do'UrdenToday at 5:59 PM No good will ever come of racial. Political. Religion or gender mass conversations. :persevere: LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 6:00 PM Then you don't understand what the word slur means I'm not going to ask my member to apologize for understanding freshman level sociology Rex BarchurstToday at 6:01 PM he used a racial slur and gender and you are supporting them LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 6:01 PM No he didn't he correctly identified how race and sexual identity influence systemic power --SM- Dinnen Do'UrdenToday at 6:06 PM :confounded: outch... just bit my tongue LTSEC Grigory/KazeToday at 6:07 PM Why don't you just bite it off for now Rex BarchurstToday at 6:07 PM I am afraid you seem to be using race and gender against people that you have no idea of their background against. We cannot tolerate that behavior in our community. I suggest you make arrangements to depart. We welcome everyone here no matter their race or identify, but we cannot have people attacking others.